Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Ok, minor rant here.
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I finally got around to taking my CCW permit class. I�ve taken other handgun courses in the past, so I thought I knew what I was getting into.
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Have to say I was VERY disappointed in the class as a whole. They went over how a gun works, what a cartridge is, and had us shoot at silhouette target (had to get 30 of 48 shots in the black). And then went over a little of the legal aspect of how you will be sued if you shoot someone.
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They spoke VERY little on defending yourself. Spoke NOTHING of what concealment means in regards to a firearm (holsters, fanny packs, things to be careful of). All they said to do if you�re in a gun fight is to call the police and then tell them �I want to speak to a lawyer�.
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Thank God my dad has taught me about things to be careful of, taught me about the different types of holsters, what to do, what to say, as well as defensive handgun tactics.
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For cryin out loud, they specifically said (and I understand they legally have to) �You only shoot to injure someone. To stop the immediate threat.�
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But you would think they would follow that up with some common sense (and good advice). On one of the breaks we had a guy about 60 say �I just don�t know if I could take someone�s life.� I finally said, �Then you have no business carrying a gun, perhaps you should buy pepper spray� He said �You may be right�
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Don�t get me wrong, I believe everyone should have the right to carry a gun. But 5 of the 20 people in my class didn�t even HAVE a gun. They had to borrow one from the instructor. At least 5 others had a gun they just bought and were firing it for the first time at that class.
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An 8 hour class and I�ll I was taught is how not to shoot myself.
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Am I over-reacting? I�m just thinking if we�re required to take an 8 hour course. GIMME SOMETHING I CAN USE!!
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- Concealment vs. cover
- How to be aware of your surroundings
- Things to consider when �carrying�

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Sounds like the same thing I had to take years ago. The class was nothing more than "formality" with basically no "usefull" information. It was just a "don't shoot anybody unless your REALLY REALLY in danger, and that's only after you've been chased a mile and tried to hide in a hole" rant. Oh well, just your typical pointless government hoops.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Just hope the rest of the people in your class have used their pistols before.

Nothing quite as frightening as being around people who don't know how to handle their own firearms!

DogFarm doesn't like pissing his pants.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Makes you wonder don't it. Why someone would think they can go from not knowing which end goes bang to carrying the thing around? I applaud them for becoming a gun owner, but damn, go shoot a while before you strap one on with visions of dirty harry. I personally think gun education should be mandatory for highschool aged kids right along with explaining what the second amendment to the constitution is really about. The fact that most people get all their firearm knowledge from hollywood and bimbos on the 6 o clock news is just sad.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I bet you'd find what you're looking for in something like Gunsite's Defensive Pistol class.

The late Jeff Cooper started Gunsite: www.gunsite.com

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Hey, at least you can get a CCW. Try getting one here in Westchester county, New York...

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

All you really got for your 8 hours and $60 is on a list. Not the sort of list you probably want to be on actually.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

My 2 day NRA course had the things you mention were missing in your class. I am surprised because all those things are important to know.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

The constitution grants a law abiding citizen the right to carry arms. So why do you need a permit? oh, when its under the jacket its not protected? There is something spooky about people walking around like cowboys. Doesn't seem normal. I'm sure it was normal during the wild west. High noon shootout was common I hear. Can you imagine this going on outside the local bar?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Never had to take a class-Not needed in PA.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I hear your rant SJ.

Best thing you will take away from the course is "I was in fear for my life"....that's your legal justification for killing those that need killing. Burn that phrase in your brain.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I think it' s kind of funny how little people know about firearms, ammunition and general gun gear these days. I was watching cops last night and the sene was that of a mexican gang member being involved in a drive by shooting. The cop found the bullet on the side walk and called it a full metal jacket .22 bullet, extremely lethal. What a dufus! I see a lot of that on cops. Mostly the cops are clueless when it comes to guns and ammo . . .

Has anyone here ever seen a full metal jacket .22 rimfire?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

yep jrog.....the CCI stinger and the Winchester Super X, to name but 2, are both .22 rimfire rounds that have a full copper jacket over a lead core.

To call it 'extremely lethal' would be a stretch unless you are pretty close ( I saw an article once on an Eskimo that hunts polar bear with a .22.....sneaks up on them and puts one round in the soft bone behind the ear.....had a whole row of skulls outside his place with a neat little hole in the skull there ).....or you taget is pretty small.....like a squirrel.

In a drive by, that would be a pretty punk round to be shooting. Even Regan survived assasination by Hinkley, who used a .22 up close.....though as James Brady could tell ya, it CAN mess up your life if you take a round in the right area.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Classes out here are $150. :rant:

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Don't you think it would be a bit of a stretch though to call a CCI stinger a FMJ? If I remember corretly, it has a very thin coating of copper to keep from excessive leading of your barrels whereas something like a 22-250, 222, 223 actually has a metal jacket to control lead expansion. What do think Andy?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Oh, I think just like you....he was going for maximum BS effect......but 'technically', a copper coating is a jacket, it's metal, and it fully covers the lead core.....so, yeah....you could call a CCI .22 a FMJ...though I'd admit I've never seen one advertised that way. Probably because you don't buy bullets to reload them like you do centerfire rounds......and thus you have all the designations that go with centerfire rounds....FMJ, BT, HPBT, SC, ect...

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I think you're right. Maximum BS for the camera . . .

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

my instructor told us to shoot to kill, so he can't be a witness against you in court. He said to spread the rounds out around the chest cavity so it would be harder for a surgeon to save his life.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Actually....if I had my choice of bullets to get shot by...and I AIN'T looking to get shot........I'd TAKE a real full metal jacket over a lead or soft point type ( copper jacket with a lead tip ) because the FMJ is really designed to wound, not kill....military theory being a wounded guy ties up 2-3 other folks behind the lines caring for him whereas a dead guy is just a dead guy.

Of course, military planners sit in nice comfy rooms with theory, and guys continuing to be shot at by other guys wounded with small caliber rounds would probably like to have a nice, big, heavy caliber round (like a 7.62x54) to put the other guy down cold and to heck with the 'wounded guy' theory.

But you get hit by a soft point hunting bullet, and that sucker mushrooms out to about twice it's original diameter, or more, and rips the guts right out of whatever it hits. I can't imagine anything more lethal than a 30.06 165gr Remington "core-lokt" round.....though I guess you'd have a hard time racking the bolt fast enough on a 700 to make an effective drive by..... :D

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I've been wanting to do this for a while, it seems to me that it is like driving courses. Just cause you can pass doesn't mean you can drive. it takes practice.
I think if you know someone - which case I do, he was a parole officer...he knows his stuff. You can ask all sorts of questions with out fear they will say something to the authorities...

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

they were saying the right thing. you SHOOT TO STOP AN AGGRESSOR if you are in FEAR OF YOUR LIFE. magic words.

do not ever say "I intend to kill X." Even if you did. The reason for that is the difference between murder and negligent manslaughter. If they cant prove that you had specific intent to kill someone, then you cant be charged with murder just one of the lesser homicide offenses.

here are your magic word phrases:

HELLO 911? SEND AN AMBULANCE AN INTRUDER HAS BEEN SHOT.

I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE

I WANT TO TALK TO MY LAWYER

I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Then why are you getting a permit?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Dunno....other than maybe where SJ got stopped a few months back for a traffic ticket, opened his glove box to get out the car papers, and cop saw his loaded .45, and took him directly to jail ?

He's probably still licking the wound to his wallet over that one.....so we can argue about rights versus priviledges.....but only if you have a bottomless checkbook.

SJ moved up here from the backward State of Louisana, where your car is considered an extension of your house and you don't need a permit to have it in your car......fortunately, Tennessee is a much more progressive State along those lines......heck, we'll probably go for Juliani this time we're so Progressive...........:sarc::sarc::sarc::sarc:

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

OK, let me help you out with this one.

You took a CONCEALED CARRY WEAPONS course on HOW to get your permit. The instructor gave you SPECIFIC information on HOW to get your permit.

If you are expecting to take a 'cover and concealment' course or a 'move and fire' course, then you went to the wrong place.

YOU WERE WANTING TO GET YOUR PERMIT, RIGHT? And taking this course makes you eligible to apply for this permit, RIGHT?

So your complaint seem to be you paid $60 and got what you paid for? The ability to apply for your CCW?

If I take my truck in to have the oil changed I don't bitch about it when they don't put it up on the dyno and tune it. I PAID for an oil change. I GOT an oil change.

Same thing here. You GOT what you paid for. Do you give your services away for free?

And lets be very CLEAR about this. Your instructor told you EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW REQUIRED HIM OR HER TO TELL YOU TO GET YOUR PERMIT. No more. No less. That limits HIS liability in case anyone he 'teaches' how apply for a CCW kills someone (even if it's a righteous shoot) or commits some other kind of violent crime with a firearm.

If he tells you 'you should shoot to kill' and one of his students says ON THE STAND, "That's what my CCW INSTRUCTOR told me to do", he's gonna have a whole passel of problems he just doesn't want or need. So come on, get some common sense.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Don't complain. Hell, I'd be happy to pay $400 if they allowed it here in Illinois. As it is, we have to have an ID card to even OWN a firearm.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

the instructor is ex leo and an opata range officer. The classroom was 10 hours long and he pounded the letter of the law into us....that's Ohio law. He gave a demonstration...he's the crook in my house stealing my stuff. Do I draw my weapon? The answer is 'no'. He is not a threat to me. If he draws a weapon then we can draw and shoot to kill. Unfortunately that's how Ohio law works.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I will say this another way because everyone should adopt this language into your way of talking. In civilian armed self defense there is no shooting to kill nor shooting to wound. There is shooting to stop. To stop an imminent attack which you fear will cause great bodily harm or death. When you shoot you aim center mass and squeeze. If you do that twice and they do not stop then you aim for the pelvis or head in what is called the "mozambique" tactic which again, is not intended to kill maim or injure but merely to stop.

Do not use words which indicate a specific intent to commit a homicide and then you will likely never be charged with murder even if some pinko prosecutor charges you with manslaughter for offing a burglar. Do not incriminate yourself with your mouth.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Have to say I'm pretty clueless about the law as it pertains to carrying. As far as i can gather, in my state it's only legal to carry if you're on your way to a shooting range or returning home from one. No provision even for when you're bringing it home from the gun shop! There should be brochure given to the purchaser that summarizes ALL the state and federal laws that pertain to owning a firearm.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I dunno, Andy, Oswald was pretty effective with his bolt action at a drive by.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

You said it Andy. It took me about nine months in litigation to get the charges dropped, taken off my record and get my firearm back. I NEVER want to go through that again. That was absolutley humiliating. All and all I hear I was really lucky to get the results I did. It cost me about $1300 to make that mistake. I never complained about the $50 it cost to take the class, of the $115 to get the permit.

I think the drivers license analogy is good. Just pay the money, meet the requirements, pass the test and you're on the road. BUT, even with that you have to take drivers education that teaches you some useful information.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

I live in the great state of Indiana.

Anyone with a clean record must be issued a CCW if they apply.

No training required, $25 for a 4 year permit

Indiana passed a castle doctrine law - come in my home I can shoot you - try to carjack me, I can shoot you - attack me any place I have the legal right to be, I can shoot you

If I shoot you during the commission of a crime you nor your family can file a suit against me

When I got my 1st CCW I had a conversation with the county sheriff. He told me shoot to kill, explain to authorities I was in fear for my life or that the dead criminal stated he was going to kill me or others.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Um, lets see.

Your first mistake about the 'shooting' part is this.

YOU CALLED THE COPS.

Now, unless the shooting was witnessed by someone OTHER than yourself, THAT was your first mistake.

It only goes downhill after that. As you discovered.

So, if you have the company of a criminal forced upon you, don't do the STUPID thing AFTER you have resolved this issue. Boy, talk about being 'programmed' by our society.

After a shooting you do TWO THINGS.

1) Keep shoveling

2) Keep your MOUTH SHUT

end of story

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Moved here to Alabama about three months ago from Florida. The only thing that's required to obtain a permit is $20 and a clean record. So I went downtown to the Sheriff's office walked in showed them my PCS orders, handed them the money, (which they seemed more concerened about more than anything) had my photo taken and was handed a laminated permit.

Although by law I needed to have a six month residency the Sheriff asked me a couple of questions.

" You in the military?" he asked.
" Yes sir."
" How long have you lived here so far?"
" Moved here in July."
" July of 06' correct?" with emphasis on the correct.
" No sir." pointing to the dates on my orders he was holding. " Just three months ago.......right here 07'"
He leaned back probably annoyed that I couln't take a hint and said I had to have lived in state for a least six months before I could apply.
Then he sighed and told me to go back inside to have a seat. So I did and so I got my permit and a three fold piece of paper with all the states that honor Alabama permit with half dozen laws, statutes, and do and don'ts. That's it. No class. No finger printing just $20 and a signiture.

Thing about Alabama is the riff raff gang bang'n thugs that were in there. I was the only white guy in the room thinking " Jusus Christ I'm glad they're allowing me get this. There's no way these guys don't have a record." But I was given the ' You're not gonna believe' speech by the guys in my shop before hand and I still didn't believe untill I witnessed.

Point is I guess this state is a free-for-all. If I do have a point?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Ha, that is ridiculous. Maybe if you are Grizzly Adams up in the hills that will work but in most places in this country where people live, you can fairly well assume that if you discharge a firearm in or about your house you can rightly assume that someone has heard it. Then if you do what you suggest you create evidence against yourself, evidence of criminal intent.

No, its very simple. 1. call /9/11 ambulance. 2. call your lawyer. 3. receive the police unarmend and say that you were in fear of your life and you want to talk to your lawyer and say nothing else.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

AE, if he follows your advice, I promise this WILL HAPPEN.

1) HE WILL BE ARRESTED

2) He will spend HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY attempting to 'convince a jury' that it was a righteous shoot. If he's lucky, he MIGHT win that case. But that's just the criminal side. If the BG had ANY relatives, expect them to come out of the woodwork looking for some kind of payoff in the civil suit they file. And file it they will and lose it HE WILL. Don't believe me? Go ask OJ.

3) He could STILL go to jail, even if it WAS a righteous shoot.


----

1) SHUT UP

2) Keep shoveling

Most LEO's can't find their own @ssholes with a flashlight, a mirror and written directions. MUCH LESS actually find a murderer. No offense to LEO's but their job is NOT to 'Protect and Serve'. THEIR JOB is to show up AFTER THE FACT, take everyone's statement, arrest someone (IF THEY ACTUALLY CAN FIGURE THAT PART OUT) and then fill out copious amounts of paper work on the incident. Eventually they will ALSO testify against you in a court of law if they arrest you. That takes us right back to the begining of my post.

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

wallew it varies in place to place. i live in the midwest and in my area-- region of around 200K pop-- there are usually 1-5 self defense homicides a year where they do not even arrest the shooter.

and its fairly well developed and so any discharges in neighborhoods-- well-- not every neighborhoods, but the ones outside the jungle-- the normal places they always investigate, so there isnt even any opportunity fo that anyways.

cheers ! have a great weekend

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

AE,
I ACTUALLY live in an upper middle class neighborhood in Denver which has more than 2M in greater metro area. Not some where out in the sticks ( I WISH). Over the past ten years I've had TWO AD's (accidental Discharge). One was just that, an AD (that's what I get for pulling a trigger on a weapon I HAD NOT CHECKED MYSELF) - but my following all the rest of the safety rules meant the round spent itself without harming anyone. The other was I had a round stuck in the barrel and I was CAREFULLY trying remove it when BOOM, my second AD.

NO ONE HEARD ANYTHING. Period. End of that story. No lights coming on, no one coming out of their house, no cops screaming to a shooting scene.

Most people are WAY to involved in their own lives to actually pay attention to whats going on around them. AND NO ONE will WANT to get involved, even if they DID hear the sounds, which is doubtful.

I stand by what I said.

S2 - shut up - keep shoveling

NOTICE I DIDN'T SAY WHERE to 'keep shoveling' did I?

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

But aren't gunshots very common in Denver? Fairly high crime when I lived there (just like any other big city).

Re: Just took my CCW permit class - RANT
 

Just came across this article, and it reminded me of this thread. Hardly scientific, but supports Anty Ep's positions.

Link: http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...WS06/709300597

Dymaxion

Gun law helping victims of crimes
September 30, 2007

BY BEN SCHMITT

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Southfield resident Wayne Heath has a few guns. He keeps a shotgun in his car.

At 5-foot-7, Heath, 47, calls his collection an equalizer of sorts.

"I absolutely would not hesitate to take somebody's life if it were in defense of my home, my wife or any of my friends," he said. "We've had enough of the thugs owning our streets and neighborhoods. Enough is enough."

And the law is on Heath's side.

Michigan's self-defense act will be a year old Monday. The law allows people to use deadly force, with no duty to retreat, if they reasonably think they face imminent death, great bodily harm or sexual assault. They can use deadly force anywhere they have a legal right to be.

The legislation, promoted by gun-rights activists, clarified when a person can use deadly force in self-defense during break-ins, carjackings and other potentially violent crimes -- even in incidents away from the person's home.

Such was apparently the case Thursday night in Detroit.

One week after a fatal carjacking in Hamtramck, an 18-year-old would-be carjacker was killed when his potential victim opened fire. Police said Michael Evans of Detroit brandished a handgun as he approached a 36-year-old man from Troy as he got into his vehicle after having dinner with friends. The Troy man used his registered handgun to shoot Evans in apparent self-defense.

The shooting, which occurred in front of Detroit Police headquarters at 1300 Beaubien, remains under investigation, but prosecutors likely won't charge the unidentified Troy man if his version of events checks out.

And in May, a 53-year-old Detroit man fatally fired his gun to protect his car from being stolen at a Detroit car wash. He, too, had a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

The botched carjacking on Grand River and Prevost came after a string of robberies in Detroit on Thursday, which police said were committed by Charles Parker Jr. and four others ranging in age from 16 to 20.

Parker brandished an unloaded handgun in a robbery attempt before a man shot and killed him. After the shooting, police questioned the 53-year-old man and released him, noting that he had a valid concealed-weapons permit.

Concealed-weapons permits rose by nearly 1,000 in Wayne County -- where much of the region's crime is concentrated -- between 2004-05 and 2005-06. Permits issued during the same time period dropped by about 1,000 in Macomb County and more than 2,000 in Oakland County, according to state records.

Law enforcement officials said they're not reading much into the statistics.

Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel said he rarely sees abuse of concealed-weapons laws. "Of course, you're going to get a case once in a while where someone's out waving a gun or something," he said. "But overall, most people are responsible."

When it comes to self-defense, Hackel said, the law is fairly basic.

"I get asked all the time: 'What does self-defense mean?' " he said. "Every case is going to be reviewed individually by police agencies and prosecutors. It boils down to the totality of circumstances: Do they feel their life is in imminent jeopardy?

"It's the same level that we use in guidelines for police to use force."